Infernals CID

    • Meine bisherige Erfahrung: ist es nicht direkt auf Lager, bestell es gar nicht erst, außer du brauchst es nicht wirklich. Es könnte Monate dauern und Infos bekommt man auch keine. Das gilt auch für neuere Sachen, wenn man nicht schnell genug ist und die Sachen direkt in der 1. Welle kauft, sind sie vergriffen und mit Pech kann man dann sehr sehr lang warten.
      Zudem gibts ja das ein oder andere Modell, was man nur bei PP selbst bekommt.
      Die Verfügbarkeit der Modelle insgesamt find ich etwas frustrierend.

      Von daher bin ich gespannt, wann die Sachen dann genau released werden und was zuerst und wie die Preisentwicklung ist. Ganz ab von den Regeln. :D (das Theme gefällt mir)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ashmodai ().

    • Infernals CID Week 2 Update

      Today, 03:08 PM
      Well, hello there.

      We have a fairly big update for you here. There will be some things here that are probably expected, and some things here that are pretty unexpected. Let's talk about some of those things.

      First, we want to go into this clearly with the understanding that summoning and essence works how we have delivered it, and while we appreciate the tons of feedback we have received on it, we are committed to iterating on the existing system, and we are not looking to replace the core concepts of summoning or essence, nor to add additional complexity.

      The major system change in this update is that a summoned Horror must now forfeit it's combat action. However, summoning will be going back to anytime during your Master's activation. This will turn summoning into more of a planned function, instead of it being "drop a heavy, slam that heavy into your enemy." While we expect (and encourage) summoning to still be of primary interest to your Master, it does open up some room for how your turn-to-turn decisions play out. The specific language is at the bottom of the notes.

      Now, moving forward, we plan to update frequently and aggressively. It is entirely possible we launch another update tomorrow (Friday), though it could be smaller and only address a couple models. At the very least, it is our plan and hope to drop an update pretty much every two days. We all know how plans go the moment we mention them to the community, but we hope to also launch an update sometime Monday, then Wednesday, etc. Our goal is to iterate on trouble models as much as possible to settle things into the right spot. So, if you read these notes and think something wasn't changed enough, just be aware that we plan on constantly tweaking models if necessary. This does not mean the entire faction will be overhauled every other day, but if something pokes out as too egregious, we would like to be able to address it in a timely fashion.

      With those said, let's jump into the details!

      Remove Arcane Devastation
      Remove Hellbound
      Remove Influence
      Remove Hex Blast
      Add Dark Mysteries
      Add Censure
      Add Dark Seduction
      Add Hellmouth

      Dark Mysteries gives you a free spell cast (once per turn) when one of your Marked Souls is killed. This gives Agathon some reactive spellcasting. Additionally, it's spell list has been pretty overhauled. I'll let the spell list speak for itself, because they are fairly extensive changes. The general idea is it gives Agathon a bit more control and hitting power.

      Change Incorporeal on Feat to Ghostly
      Change Locked Horns from affecting all models to only battlegroup models

      Omodamos is seeing some power reduction. We didn't want to touch him too hard, because we think the summoning change impacts him quite a bit, so we are making the changes we feel are critical without going too deep down the rabbit hole.

      Change +2 DEF on feat to +3 DEF
      Remove Grave Wind
      Remove Shadow Gate
      Add Admonition
      Add Distraction
      Add Long Shadows

      Zaateroth is pretty solid, but we wanted to give her a bit of a nudge up. Shadow Gate just wasn't doing what we wanted, so we cut it and Grave Wind in favor of Admonition and Distraction. Distraction in particular has some strong control aspects, especially when doubled up with her feat, which saw a slight bump. Also, we moved Long Shadows off Valin and put it onto Zaateroth. This is a change we're keep a close eye on, because while we like that the faction has some weakness into dedicated gunlines, we don't want to tip that scale TOO far.

      Change MAT 7 to MAT 6

      Frankly, the Tormentor is too accurate. Dropping it's MAT from 7 to 6 means that you may need to boost to hit certain targets, which changes how you utilize Essence on it, which are the kind of small changes that can have ripple effects on the Essence economy. We're keeping a close eye on this.

      Change RAT 6 to RAT 5

      This change was made for the exact same reasons as the Tormentor above.

      Change Essence from 3 to 2
      Change Point Cost 9 to 7
      Change Soul Parasites to a passive ability

      We have some significant changes we want to introduce to playtesting to see how they shake out. We changed the Lamenter to a cheaper (both points and Essence) Horror, and took the Essence cost requirement off Soul Parasites. We want this to be a light Horror that can act as a disruption piece (Soul Parasites, Dodge, Crit Paralysis) that can still threaten targets with a decently good P+S 13.

      Change ARM 15 to 14
      Change Eyeless Sight to True Sight

      This thing didn't have no eyes! It had all the eyes! The actual change here is that it can now be Blinded, essentially. Also, it was ARM 15, which was just a tad too sturdy. We're still keeping an EYE on this one (get it?).

      Cultist Band
      Change Point Cost from 6/8 to 6/9
      Remove Shanghai

      Additional changes to Cultists. Shanghai removes a lot of complexity, which we're in favor of. Again, Cultists are a core function of the army we are keeping a close eye on, and we are interested in seeing how the new summoning changes, Dark Sentinel changes, and Faustus changes impact them before touching them more.

      Change Point Cost from 9/15 to 10/16

      Slight point increase.

      Lord Roget d'Vyaros
      Remove Arcane Assist
      Add Spiritual Conduit

      Roget is kind of one of the culprits of our Essence economy issue. He was adding two free Essence to our Masters, and this is a deliberate and targeted change to mitigate that. We like Spiritual Conduit, but we're also not sold on it entirely. We'll be keeping on eye on how he shakes out via battle reports to make sure he lands right where we want him. He should definitely be a useful toolbox of abilities for your Master, but not a one-stop-shop of all-encompassing Essence efficiency.

      Lord Adept Quintus Faustus
      Remove Grave Mist
      Add Granted: Self-Sacrifice
      Add Soul Transfer

      These are some broad changes to Faustus. Our goal here is to add a little bit of protection to him (and perhaps Dark Sentinels) by controlling who get's killed. The addition of Soul Transfer also makes him a compelling mid-field option for those daring Cultists who like to get their hands dirty, or attract a lot of ranged attacks. This is a bit of a new direction for him, so let us know how he plays on the table!

      Great Princess Regna Gravnoy
      Change Master Infernalist to "This model is not an infernal master but has all the special rules of an infernal master except that it has no feat. This model can have only non-character Faction light and lesser horrors in its battlegroup. This model can have up to one horror in its battlegroup and any time and cannot summon a horror if there is already a horror in her battlegroup in play."

      This change makes Regna still a super valuable solo who brings in Horrors, but limits her to a single Horror at a time. This will have pretty significant implications for Regna, and her Mobile Oppression Palace of Shriekers. I also think this means there will be situations where she wants to summon a Lamenter to throw out as a missile to absorb attacks and die, then repeat (obviously the turn after she summons it). It might also mean she can cast some of her spells! This is obviously a big change, let us know how it feels!

      Valin Hauke
      Add Tactician [Infernal]
      Remove Long Shadows

      Spoiler alert, Tactician has been removed from Mordecai and given to Valin, and as mentioned in the Zaateroth blurb above, we moved Long Shadows to her. Note: we realize this may have ramifications for the shooting susceptibility of the army (a flaw we are currently ok with). However, if this tilts to pendulum TOO far towards Guns-Just-Delete-This-Army, we will be looking at solutions.

      Dark Sentinel
      Add [6] to Magic Ability
      Add Hex Bolt
      Add Battle Wizard
      Remove Shanghai

      Some pretty significant changes to Dark Sentinels. We want to play them up as the damage dealers of the unit. Battle Wizard and Hexbolt give them some more damage to throw out there, and hey, you could even live the dream and try to Battle Wizard a Rituals of Shadow!

      Umbral Guardian
      Change non-Soulless to non-Umbral

      This one swung a little too far, so we're moving it back a bit. This is probably a very happy place for them. They can Shadow Guardian basically everything except each other. YOT EM!

      Infernal Gate
      Reduce the maximum number of Souls it can have from 5 to 3

      We're keeping a close eye on the Gate. There are some things we want to fiddle with, but before we do that, we want to see how the summoning change shakes out. If we feel like that has landed in a good place, we'll begin tinkering with this bad boy.

      Mordecai, Master of Arms
      Remove Tactician
      Language clean up on Insidious Plans

      This is the first step to get his abilities working correctly in the first place. Again, he is very high on our priority list. The swapping of Tactician is a good initial change, but hardly the final step. Keep play testing him, but believe me, we're going to keep sluggin' away at this guy until he is just right.

      Kezia Brand, the Screaming Night
      Change Point Cost from 5 to 4
      Remove Shadow Fire
      Remove range restriction on Devour Soul

      We want Kezia to be a sniper who picks off lone enemy models and delivers their souls. Shadow Fire was counter to this, so was limiting how far she could deliver the soul. Also, we dropped her points. Hopefully this'll help get her where we want her to go.

      Summoning allows an infernal master to expend essence points to summon a horror from beyond time and space to add to its battlegroup.

      An infernal master can summon a horror during its activation by spending a number of essence points equal to the base ESSENCE stat of the horror summoned. An infernal master can summon up to one horror each turn.

      Place the horror base-to-base with the summoning infernal master. The horror enters play with one essence point. The horror is part of the infernal master’s battlegroup. A horror must forfeit its Combat Action the turn it is summoned.
      Khador players don't understand things like utility.
    • Ashmodai wrote:

      Jeder freie Punkt bringt PP mehr Geld.
      Ein Spieler einer Fraktion die ihre Battlegroup im Spiel erweitern kann und offensichtlich Spezialisten hat, hat mehr Optionen, wenn er mehr Auswahl neben dem Tisch hat. D. h. nicht nur Liste kaufen, sondern auch noch Problemlöser für unterschiedliche Probleme. Und es kann vorteilhaft sein mehr als ein Sidepiece für jedes Problem zu haben.

      Allein die Variabilität wird PP eine Menge Geld einbringen und vermutlich Infernals einen Platz in Team Turnieren sichern. PP macht durchaus genug Kohle mir Variabilität, kein Grund finanzielle Erwägungen in die Warbeast points einfliessen zu lassen.
    • Ich bin ja nicht ganz drin im CID. Auch wenn ich gespannt bin wie das Endergebnis aussehen wird.

      Aber ich habe grade Warbeast Points gelesen und musste dabei am die Battlegroup Punkte der Master denken.
      Wurde es schon in Erwähnung gezogen, dass die Punkte der Master gegen 0 gehen und die quasi alles beschwören müssen?

      Dann wäre das auf den ersten Blick auch fast wieder OK, Wenn die voll aktivieren. Bzw müsste man dann sehen.

      Aber man hat das klare Alleinstellungsmerkmal der Infernals, Nimmt ihnen etwas Wind aus den Segeln lässt ihnen aber ne Menge Freiheit.
      Also zum einen das einstellen auf den gegener und dass die Horror definitiv einen Alpha bekommen können ohne vorher Schaden zu nehmen - was schon sehr stark ist.

      Oder gab es die Idee bei PIP schon und wurde für "naja" befunden?
    • Von meinen Beobachtungen aus her sind zum einen, die meisten Leute sich darüber schon im klaren das Infernals (zumindest bis zum letzten Update) zu gut waren.
      Es gibt auch jede Menge ansätze wie man das ganze fixen könnte.

      Auch die HP (Horror Punkte) der Master runter zu setzten war eine häufige Überlegung dabei.

      Insofern müssen die Devs gerade nur entscheiden in welche Richtung sie das ganze bringen wollen. Nicht mehr laufen->Beschwören-> und dann voll aktivieren zu können ist sicher richtig gewesen
      Meine Taktik? Axt ins Gesicht! Was braucht man mehr?
    • Also ich finde den Umfang der Änderungen etwas erschreckend.
      CID sollte doch eigentlich das Balancing abstimmen und nicht komplette Konzepte umwerfen.

      Regeln werden geschrieben -> Interne Tests und Änderungen -> CID kürzt Spitzen und bessert nach

      Aber anscheinend wird bei den Infernals einfach alles an die Wand geworfen und dann geschaut, was kleben bleibt.

      Wenn das Konzept der Infernals sein sollte, dass die Horrors beschworen werden und dann voll aktivieren dürfen, dann sollte die Baustelle die Stärke der Horrors sein und welchen Support die Armee bietet. Nicht die Grundregeln der Faction im Rahmen eines ultrakurzen CIDs über den Haufen werfen und Caster komplett re-designen, sowie Theme Forces löschen etc.
    • Hmm?

      Die Theme haben sie rausgeworfen, um sie später zu testen, da das den Umfang dieses CID sprengt.
      Caster werden doch regelmäßig komplett re-designed im CID. Über den Haufen werfen von Grundregeln sehe ich auch nicht. Die Essence-Summon Mechanik ist bis jetzt so geblieben. Sie tweaken gerade nur was der Horror dann darf bzw in welcher Form das passiert.

      Imo ist das ein typisches CID. Einige Ausreißer, aber der Großteil steht schon recht stabil. Gerade versuchen sie sich nur an einen der wichtigsten Ausreißer heran zu tasten.
      Finde gut wie sie das machen und nicht gleich brachial alles Verändern.

      Aber ja, es gibt verschiedenen Tendenzen wie das Kernproblem gelöst werden solle. Änderung am summoning, Änderungen an der Essence Menge oder die Horrors anpassen.

      Gibt unter den Spielern Anhänger und Feinde von allen Aspekten.
      Meine Taktik? Axt ins Gesicht! Was braucht man mehr?
    • Es läuft ein DevChat zum Thema Summoning :

      Possible Horror Summoning Alternative

      Today, 10:59 AM
      There was a thread overnight that sparked some really good conversation that led the dev team to discuss a possible alternative to the summoning rules proposed yesterday.

      The basic idea is that when a horror is summoned, it comes into play with its outer and middle rings crippled but it can take its Combat Action normally.

      The horrors damage rings can then be healed by Cultists, who can both restore function to the horror and fill it with essence. Additionally, we would change the rules for crippled aspects under this system:
      • While the outer ring is crippled, the horror rolls one fewer die on attack rolls.
      • While the middle ring is crippled, the horror rolls one fewer die on damage rolls.
      • Horrors will also have to pay essence to run, charge, and make power attacks.
      Additionally, summoning returns to the Control Phase.

      Our suspicion is that this system is weaker than the current "must forfeit Combat Action" version of the summoning rules, and that is by intent. But these rules also preserve some of the drama and fun factor that is lost when summoned horrors cannot act the turn they are summoned. This is the trade off that we are willing to try.

      Please note that we also realize that these proposed changes will make Agathon’s Well of Sorrow feat incredibly powerful. Our suspicion is too powerful, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

      If you want to post to this thread, please read all the way through this post before commenting.

      We are looking for player’s to play test some games using the damage ring system and hopefully also the current "must forfeit Combat Action" version of the summoning rules and let us know which you prefer. We are not looking for alternative suggestions at this time, especially suggestions that add any further complexity. The whole point of why we are entertaining this possible direction is that it works within the framework of the existing rules.

      If you post a battle report using these rules, please mark it as such at the start of your report so everyone reading it will know what it is.

      If you don't have an opinion on which you prefer or want to litigate previous iterations of the summoning rules, this is not the thread for you. We are going to be focused here.

      I also wanted to reiterate that in the case we retain the current "must forfeit Combat Action" version of the summoning rules, the damage rules would not change to the more severe system described above.

      We are going to let this dev talk run through the weekend and lock it down Monday morning. The dev team will wander in and answer questions from time to time as we are available.

      Assuming we do not change the current "must forfeit Combat Action" version of the summoning rules, we will begin digging deeper into its implications next week as we start discussing the possibility of adding an Ancillary Attack special action, or a similar special rule, to the Faction. We may also discuss the idea of giving more horrors passive effects so they can have some additional effect on the game the turn summoned. But that will be next week.

      And thanks everyone who gives this some thought!
    • Ich meine, wir reden hier von grundlegenden Mechaniken, welche die ganze Fraktion betreffen. Die sollten doch am Anfang der Entwicklung stehen, und dann kann man mit dem eigentlichen balancing der Modelle anfangen. Aber wenn man mitten im CID diese grundlegenden Regeln umwerfen möchte, wie soll da am Ende ein gutes balancing heraus kommen?